Hello, welcome to episode 15 of Lost in Immersion, your weekly 45-minute stream about innovation. As VR and AR veterans, we will discuss the latest news of the immersive industry. And I really wonder what we'll be talking about, because there is absolutely no news this week. Joke apart, of course, we'll be talking about the latest Apple VR. Or AR, it's that we don't know or people don't really know. So, okay, so first of all, what's your first impression of this, Fabien, Seb? When I first looked at the page and the video and the announcement, I had doubts of what they were able to achieve. But after looking in more detail, I really think it's a very, very smart move from Apple. So maybe I have a bit of controversial opinion here. I think it's really well done. And I can go into details if you want as to why. I think it's really well done. But yeah, that's so a first impression of... And then after looking into the details and thinking about it, I think it's a really good device and a really good product placement from Apple. Seb? Again, I'm just saying, and in terms of details, we'll go into details, but I think there's a couple of things that is a bit of an issue for the use case we were thinking about using it. So a bit disappointing about those choices they made. But apart from that, I think it's a nice device. And I would like to test it soon. Well, for my part, I guess I had the same feeling as you because I saw the entire presentation as well. So first of all, because I took a bet with some friend of mine that they won't be announced completely the device on Monday. So I saw the whole conversation and the more the time passed, the more I said, I was guessing, yes, I want my bet and they won't be announcing it. So yeah, first of all, why wait so long for this announcement? Because it was so boring. And especially they didn't have that much innovation despite the announcement of this device. So that's the first point. And then when the progression of this announcement, first of all, I thought that, well, they are just doing this assisted reality we are talking about. We have been talking about in the past few weeks, like Unreal or XReal and all those competitors because they were just talking about this screen that you can have placed in the room for you to see or TV or whatever. And the more the presentation went and we saw that it was more than that. So it was a bit of a relief. And yeah, like you Fabien and Seb, just after this presentation, I was like, why? Yeah, why not? Then I was excited like yesterday and we can have now a lot of people that tested this device for real and they have a lot more feedback than we had or technical information that we had previously with just the presentations. And with this information, I'm going back to the, is it really that good? So Fabien, you said that you like this strategic or marketing placement of the device. So can you tell us more about this? Yeah, so if we assume that their long-term strategy is to have more and more adoption of such devices and to like open a completely new market and to drive adoption of a lot of users, assuming that I think it's really well done because if they had focused their presentation on, I don't know, complex industrial usage or fancy games or, I don't know, metaverse or with synchronized avatar or whatever, it would not have appealed to someone that didn't try VR yet or AR yet. But here, okay, I can look at my desktop with more freedom. I can look at it into my space. I can play games. I can watch movies. So this is more like concrete usage that many, many people can refer to. And on top of that, the device seems to be really, really high end in terms of hardware. So good sensors, a very good camera, very good lenses. So the combination of a very high end device with really usage that everyone can relate to, I think this is the good way to go to drive adoption of XR, AR, MR. We can discuss what name to use, but yeah, that's why I think it's a really good marketing move. Yeah. About the strategy and the marketing, I agree, but on a different point of view, I think on the pricing, it's quite high to buy for a user that is a standard. So they are really more targeting the industry and with that kind of price. And therefore they are like competing with Vario in terms of product. And Vario is like twice that price. So not having that kind of demo when they launch it, cannot show that they are targeting wealth or audience, people that have a lot of money. With only TV and VR device, not a lot of multigrain use case right now. But that's the way Apple are always advertising on their device. They announce it, and then they left the time to the developer to create some demo and some application on it, and release some videos through time. So when the device is available, there is a huge catalog of applications. So maybe that will come later. Well, I completely agree with that. Indeed, on this price versus the use cases they presented, I wondered myself that are they doing like the Magic Leap mistake when Magic Leap just promoted their AR headsets for entertainment, art and a bit of gaming and with a price tag of which is still high today. And a few years after that, they asked themselves, well, it's very strange. We don't have any customers and people are not using it the way we thought. And now they switch back to the industry and professional. And I think this is quite the same. Apple is used to create great interfaces and designs for the mainstream population, and they have a strong community around that. And they did like they're doing with all their products. And the fact here is that I'm not sure even if there are core communities is ready to spend that kind of money for something that, as you said, Fabien, is not that anchored in our lives. It's a completely new device for most people, and people don't really understand this yet. As I read on some mainstream publication and articles, they are still messed up with VR, AR and whatever. So they are kind of not really getting what it is made for. So, yeah, there is a disconnect, I guess, between what they presented, which is very good, as you said, Fabien, because they completely erased all the complicated or technical parts of what would mean VR. It's a very simple use cases that people can understand. The other thing that I found very interesting is that they are presenting their device as something for communication between humans. They want to break the idea that we talked about also a few weeks back that VR is seen as something that isolate people and they want to be isolated. And it's for just yourself and your view is completely blocked with the device and you don't know what people are doing with this. And by this front screen, which is like it's most cosmetic, but it has this sense of the device is not completely closed and you can see others and interact with others contrary to the VR headsets right now. So they are starting to build a wall between the VR competitors and their view of this kind of devices. And it's pretty smart to try to... We are not like the other. And once again, it's a typical strategy for Apple to cultivate this difference between them and the others. And of course, the price is one of this point as well. So we have the Quest 3, which would be around 600 USD and you have them with a very high price and very high quality headsets. So yeah, they are just trying to differentiate themselves from the competition. Fabien, it's a human reflection that I know you like. Yeah. And just by the way, your video switch to... Yeah, yeah. Yeah, thanks. And one thing that I... And I don't know if this is a correct comparison to do, but if we look at the Macintosh like 40 years ago or a bit less than 40 years ago, it was a very high price for that time. The Apple Watch as well. Yeah. So maybe what Apple wants to say is that it's not a computer, it's not a watch. It's really like a completely new, new different device. And that... Like maybe, yes, this version will be only for a few wealthy persons and for professionals like us. But maybe their end game is to decrease the price with the future versions and to drive adoption that way. I don't know. For me, many things, like you said, they did the same as Meta, but also as the HoloLens, Microsoft HoloLens. The first time the HoloLens was released, they released it with games and advertised those games. But it was never sold as a device that you could buy for yourself at home. So they changed also their target on the second version and really target only the industry or use case for this one. And one thing that bothered me with the headset is also the fact that it's really personal. You need to make your own personal... I just can't remember the name of that, the foam parts that you put in front of it. Oh, yeah. And also you have to buy precipitation lenses. So it's really a personal device. And the batteries are not included. So that made that difficult to use for industry. Because when you have an industry, you won't have your own personal device and everyone will have their own. You would share the device together. And here, with this strategic choice, it makes it tough to share it. If you have to change every time, the best solution is to use the foam and make one for everyone. Yeah, that makes it a bit strange for me to sell it this way. Yeah, apparently this customization will be done in the Apple stores. So I don't know how they can manage this as well because they would have to have a completely new line of people getting there if this is a success. So I'd like to bring some of the technical specifications that are coming out because of the people trying them out yesterday and today, I guess. So first of all, something that surprised me a bit is the weight. People are complaining about the weight of the headsets because of the materials used, because it's metal and glass. And for people that are used to use VR headsets, they found it very heavy on the nose. So because at some point, the leaks were talking about carbon fiber headsets because of the luxurious design and indeed the weight loss, the overall weight of the device. So do you think this is a good idea to stick to the Apple design with glass and metal and impact the weight and the comfort of the headsets? Or should they have then gone to the carbon fiber side and keep this luxurious style but keep the weight low as well? Yeah, is it a good idea? I'm not sure. One thing that seems obvious once you say that is this is why the battery is external. If they even had the battery in the headset, that would be even more weight on the head. So that's one thing. And yeah, I think it seems obvious for the hardware that the hardware and materials, like they put the top quality on everywhere. Maybe when we talk about the sensors and everything else, but yeah, it's very interesting to see. Seb, you're not... Yeah, personally, in all the headsets, I tried the different weight, et cetera. But the main thing for me that differs and make a device comfortable is more the balance than the weight itself. And here, they don't have anything on the back. So everything is on the front and, of course, goes on your nose. And when I tried the Crest 4 of the Roland, where the battery is on the back, everything is balanced. So the weight is not an issue. It's really more the balance. Having your head always going on the bottom because you have all the weight on the front of your head resting on your nose is not comfortable. But having the battery on the back usually helps. At least, that's what I see on the Crest 4 and the Roland S2. And here, I think it's really a bad choice to have put the battery on an external cable. With the Magic Clip, we have this kind of similar functionality. It's more the CPU, et cetera, that it's external, but it does the same of having a cable that is resting in you, on yourself. And so you are always meeting your movement and it's ready to play. And also having only two hours of battery. Yeah, I was coming to that. And I guess they are talking about not integrating the battery into the headsets for weight or whatever justification. But I guess they did an external battery for this problem because right now, as you said, it's only two hours, which is completely not compatible with the use cases they presented because right now, all the movies are more than two hours. So you won't be able to see any kind of movie in its entire length. So it makes no sense. And I guess they did the external battery because they are praying for a new generation battery, maybe next year, and they could replace just this module without changing the device in its integrity. And it matches what Fabien says about the longevity of the headsets. They are willing to keep it as long as possible. And this element that is the battery is basically the weakness of most of the autonomous headsets and this is a very fast move for that because you can keep your headset and just upgrade your batteries. But for a launch, official launch, and have only two hours, it reminded me of the Google Glass launch when the two hours were more like a one and a half hour of intense use or one hour. And yeah, it's not matching the expectation of this kind of headsets. Yeah. And to nuance a bit, the usage that they presented, I think mostly in couch or on a desktop, on a desk, sorry. So for this usage, you can be plugged in. But yeah, I agree with you. If you're, I don't know, if you want to watch a movie in the plane or whatever, two hours is pretty low. Yeah, about the plane, I guess everyone identified with this. When you are looking at testers and everyone, the plane use case, they really did hit on that. And I think people are just, just because of this use case, are very, very excited with this. And some people said that probably on the business or high-end planes, you could have this device for rental or available at your seats. So I guess they should have a market there at some point. Yeah, I'm curious about the sound as well, because if I understood correctly, the, it's not like AirPods. It's more like a module that is on the band. So I don't know how that will work. I'm very curious to, it's one of the innovation that I'm really curious to test. They said it could be connected with all the Bluetooth devices. So I guess at some point you can connect your AirPods and with the noise cancellation and so on they announced, it could be a great match as well. Still the Apple ecosystem, I can't see them not connecting the AirPods to that. Okay. About the ecosystem, we were wondering about if they will provide a way to code directly on the device. And it seems like they went to another way to be able to connect directly to your computer, to your Mac and directly the screen display on it, but use still the power of your Mac to create your application. That's also a weird move for me. I'd rather prefer the device itself being a Mac or being able to replace the Mac, but it doesn't seem to be the case. Well, yeah, it has a computation power of a Mac because it has the M2 processor but they didn't talk about, yeah, I guess the storage is on your iCloud but we don't have any information about the memory and stuff like that. And are you able to run some of their most famous software on this? I guess it could be limited. But yeah, the use case is that you have your Mac next close to you and it will be your computation power for you to work. I don't have much information on that. I don't know if you have more but the technical specification on the computation power is not available yet despite the fact that it has two processors. Yeah, maybe related to that, we can discuss a bit about Unity. And so the Game Engine Unity which seems to be the choice of Apple for creating experiences for the Vision Pro which is not so surprising. Like choosing between Unity or Unreal Engine knowing that Epic Games, the creator of Unreal Engine sued Apple two years or three years ago. I think it's a nice- Revenge? I don't know if it's a nice revenge from Apple, yeah. So it's like, take that, Epic Games. But I think Unity is a very good platform and hopefully this is back to the initial impression of having kind of not super complex usage. Having support of the Unity on that headset will help create really complex experience, complex games, hopefully. So I was really happy to hear that. I would love to see an announcement where you can launch Unity in the headset and work directly in the editor. Yeah, but about Unity, I don't know if you saw the stock market prices but Apple didn't move that much. So unlike NVIDIA, which had a very big bounce or increase just a few hours after the presentation of their new technology, Apple didn't make that increase. But Unity did. They increased like 17%, which is huge for their stock market price. So I hope you have some placement there. But it was the good news for them. I think people really will react to that announcement because in fact, it's a huge announcement for Unity. Yeah, they are very active on this partnership and bringing up new technologies inside their editors like ChantyPT in the next iteration. And yeah, it's good news for everyone to have this kind of partnership. Yeah, but about partnership, I would like to have your insight about the Disney partnership they announced. And people are not talking about this that much yesterday and today, it kind of went into shadow. But I thought that the Apple presentation of the device were very controlled and limited to use cases and they were just projecting the things that they knew were possible. And when we switched to Disney, we went completely off track. And it feels like the whale presentation of Magic Leap when people are like, what we can do with that? And they are just completely, they went completely crazy about this and showing augmentation of the body and stuff everywhere in your room. So what do you think about this? Is this too much? Because they were using the conditional every time we could do that. It should be nice if we had that. But yeah, it reassured me that nobody is talking about this. Yeah, I think indeed it's like a future, like what it could be. But as I think we talked about that in the previous episode, Disney, what they do is they tell stories. So I think they told a story as well. But I would be very curious to see what's after a movie. Like, can they tell a story, a special story to take their world? I'm very curious to see, yeah. Sam, any thoughts about this? Yeah, the same as you. The video was very fake and very Magic Leap-like, like the whale. So disappointed about that. And overall, inside the war plantation, it was missing for me a lot of inside view of what you really see inside the headset. Now there is some feedback on how the passthrough is and how is the quality of the passthrough. So it seems to be good and quite impressive. So that's nice to have this kind of feedback of the user. But from the video itself, from the presentation itself, it was not clear. And yeah, specifically on this part with Disney, it was really a nice video, a nice fake video. And I really wonder also what they would do with the technology in terms of augmented reality experiences. They know how to tell a story, but that's a new medium. And after I tested a lot of scenarios and augmented reality experience, I know that it's really tough to prepare to all the behavior the user will have inside this scenario. And I was storytelling around that. It's quite complex. If you had some interaction, same thing to be controlled, calibrated, guided. So it's a whole new way of interacting with the user compared to a movie or a 3D movie or even a game, a 2D game that you play on your console. So yeah, I really wonder how well that would go. And I think that would take time to achieve that goal and find the right way of interacting with the user. Well, about the lenses and the technical optical specification, we have some more information about this. And people that tried the headsets are saying that the image is not that clear. They felt that the image was blurry. And the next thing is that the field of view is not complete. You have some blackened space around your eyes. And it confirmed my fear when I saw the rendering of the headsets because they are talking about stem size screens. So it's a very, very small screen with very dense pixel resolution in them. And I thought about myself that lenses couldn't compensate this lacking of screen size. And indeed, it's not the case. So we don't have the official specification, which is strange because now it's like a marketing presentation of the field of view of the headsets. And we don't have any information about this. So I'm a bit scared about this to know the real field of view of these headsets. And yeah, the colors are not as sharp as they should have been. They are a bit darker than the reality. So you have this, again, this disconnect between the reality and the view of this. So it's not perfect. It's one of the best rendering you could have on the market right now. So they still upgrade their game there, but it's not the game changer that we could have expected, meaning that we could have this whole field of view covered. In terms of conversion, did you see anything about a person comparing to the Vario? No, the Vario is still confidential. And people that were invited to test the Apple headsets are on the mainstream side. So they don't have this kind of comparison. The only stuff they can compare to is the Quest Pro. And of course, on this side, it's a completely new level. So it would have been nice to hear someone that tried the Vario and this one as well to see exactly what the difference is. Maybe in the next few months when less famous people could have access to this and more technical ones. Fabien, anything about this? I don't have much to add on that topic. So now the next topic about the Visio conference team meeting and so on. So when they presented the first video of the headsets, they show one person interacting with their colleagues in a team meeting. And I don't know the platform for Apple for that well. And I thought, yeah, it's great, but what the others are seeing and it was weird. Okay. And they answered this question a bit later, yeah. And the 3D scans and avatar animation is very, very interesting. But unfortunately, we have two different feedback on that. More on this mainstream media says it's very good. The animation is great. And we really have the feeling of having a PS5 character talking to your colleagues. And when you're talking about more technician or people that are more aware of what you can do with the avatars today, they are talking about, yeah, not so realistic and maybe uncanny avatars that are a bit cringy for quote unquote. And yeah, the idea is there. Unfortunately, I get the 3D scans is not that advanced yet. And it matches the Google style line we talked about two weeks ago, I guess. And yeah, I guess the 3D scan avatar animation or video stream merging will be something that we'll see in the next few months because companies are like aligned to this technical specification. Fabien? Yeah, it's really nice to see how they thought about that. Say, okay, having someone with a headset in a meeting is a bit weird. So we will replace it with a scan. So indeed, the first feedback from technical people is that it's not maybe as best as it could be. I'm on the hopeful side because there are a lot of software part into that. So of course, the sensors are important. But maybe in the next month, years with the progress of AI and software, we can have an improvement on that side. But it's kind of similar to the outward screen. It's trying to find solutions for the people in the headset feeling isolated and the people outside of the headset feeling that they cannot really connect with the person in the headset. So I'm really curious to see how that evolved in real time in real use case. And if we want to move to the, like in the presentation, I think it's a family and they take pictures with the headset. That's kind of, you know. This is the other cringy part of, people are saying, yeah, you can't, it's your birthday and you have your dad moving around the headset and taking photos. It's completely weird. Yeah. It's weird in the way that people are not used to this, but if we consider in the future, these headsets as our cell phones or smartphones, it won't be that weird because people will be using this on an everyday basis. And yeah, people will have masks all around. So it won't be that cringy. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe in terms of eye tracking, they really improved the game there. Yeah, there are things, this is the best eye tracking they ever tried. And they are basing all the interaction with that and gesture, but it's pretty simple and gesture to make it, make not the user move everywhere and be able to do that for several hours without panic. Yeah, we learned the lesson of HoloLens and you have to pick in front of the headset. Apparently, you can have your hand very close to you and just do this. So on the hand fatigue, it's great. So we can bounce on the capture side that Fabien was willing to talk about. Yeah, they put cameras all around. And apparently, they understood that we are not meant to do the minority report interaction all day. So we have to rest our arms. So Fabien, if you have anything. Yeah. I just have a question still on the eye tracking. Do you think they are using only that, the position of the pupils to create the avatar movement or they use... They have cameras facing your lower part of the face. So they know when you are talking, smiling and whatever. So they are merging this information with your eyes. And apparently, they can provide some emotional or animation. I guess they talked about machine learning. So maybe you have some kind of calibration or something of your avatar to them to understand what you are doing with your face and replicate it on your avatar. Because they don't have the eyeball, right? The eyeball is not an information they can provide accurately. I don't know. They have like captures all around plus some LED illumination around for them to project the vision of your eye in front of the headset. So you should have the whole eye movement. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Sorry. It seems like when you will first use the headset, you will have to put it and turn it towards you and they will scan the face with the depth sensor. So maybe this is how they create the first digital avatar and then animate with the other sensors. Okay. So just a little inside joke. Do you think this would be the rebirth of 3D video or 3D movies? Because they presented avatar inside of this and as it is capable of stereoscopy, maybe we'll see a resurgence of 3D movies or do you think it's completely dead? That's a very good question because of course, yeah, they present movies but they also, as we discussed a bit, they present a way for the user himself to create, to take pictures, to take... Yeah. Yeah. Also pictures and movies are stereoscopic if you want to relieve your souvenir or what you did with the headset. So I don't know, maybe with the partnership with Disney, it will get 3D movies back on track. I don't know. Yeah. Still, if you want your whole family to see the movie all together, it's, you will have to sell your car or your house. Okay. So it's just a light subject on this. And finally, I guess... Or there could be like theater that opens up with only headsets and then people use their headsets but because it's custom that make it very tough to deploy this way. Yeah. We could see a new way of doing theater in blank spaces just with seats and headsets we don't have. It could be a gain of space and rental price for them, for example. Yeah. So last question. Yeah. Last question for us because why didn't they tell us that it could be compatible with VR? I guess Fabien has one part of the question because they don't want to mess people around with all these technical aspects. But I guess we all agree that this headset is capable of VR because it has all the technical aspect of it. And I think at some point they could have announced a game changer or a game killer by saying that we can do all this all at once. And we lost Seb. No, I'm here. Okay, great. So yeah, why not? And I was thinking about this. I'm telling you my interpretation of it is because as they don't want any peripheral or interaction devices because they're all based on your eye tracking and your hands. By doing this, they are just closing the VR market and VR games and so on. And I think this is at some point quite dangerous because when you are reading the comment on the VR community, they are just saying, yeah, well, they can't support VR games so I won't buy these headsets. So they are closing, they are not exploiting or using this VR community of gamers that they have money because they are buying VR headsets every three months and they are collecting them. And I think this is strange. And apparently people ask the question of doing VR devices or VR controllers and Apple completely shut the door on that. So it's very, very weird. They could have had a completely free market by doing this and they really don't want to go that way. So what are your thoughts? Yeah, it's a bit strange. One way to explain that is, I think I already mentioned it, is because they want to drive adoption. Showing VR is maybe a bit frightening to some people, I mean, to the general public. But at the same time, the press is already confused because I saw some articles saying, oh, the new Apple VR device is out. Yeah, they don't understand what the device is doing. It's VR, AR, Mixed Reality and whatever. So it's completely messed up. What? Maybe that's good in a way. So not using complex or buzzworthy words and instead having a much simpler way to explain it. But yeah, I totally resonate with you a bit. Disappointed on that side of the spectrum of XR technologies. Indeed, it reflects in the name of the device, Vision Pro. They don't have any XR, AR, VR or whatever new terms they could have invented. I think the name is not exciting at all, Vision Pro. Well, it's just my massive thesis, but yeah, they could have done something more original, I guess, but why not? I think they did the same with the phone. They take only the functionality and put the Pro behind or the Apple in front. Yeah, but I'm not an Apple boy, but since the disappearing of Steve Jobs, they are not calling any new device i, or am I wrong? They are talking about Apple Watch and Apple Vision Pro and maybe Apple. Yeah, it's not iPod or whatever, but the i is not there anymore. Yeah. I guess Tim Cook is willing to provide his own heritage on the Apple brand. Yeah, well, that's pretty much it, but yeah, the VR part, I really don't understand why they are not going that way, but yeah. Yeah. Maybe, I thought, but maybe they don't want to be linked to the meta fiasco and the metaverse and VR side as well. That's possible, yeah. Even though having some false feedback with a controller is quite nice with a VR or AR device, so yes, losing this kind of interaction that you can have with these controllers as I'll come in later with a gloves or gloves solution or stuff like that. You can see rings that you put on your fingers. Yeah, there was some feedback about this. You have a demo with a butterfly coming on your hand and people said that at this point, it was like breaking the immersion because you don't have any feedback on this. Yeah, it can break the presence you could have in this kind of environment, but at this point, what could you use despite gloves? But I don't think Apple will go that way either because it would mean non-comfortable or easy-to-use devices. It's very specific to us technical VR specialists. Okay, I guess I've done all my list on this. Maybe we'll have more information during the week. Do you have any more to say or did you see anything that we didn't cover? About the release date, maybe? Oh, next year, yeah. Early next year, so it's not even defined yet and it's only in the US at the beginning, so we are far from having one to play with. Yeah, I guess they are kind of matching what I heard, meaning that they were not willing to send the devices until September this year for developers to start doing things with it. I guess they are testing the market as well, seeing what people are thinking about the device, getting their feedbacks, and hopefully they'll upgrade the device for next year, especially for the lenses or the battery. I guess the battery thing is the thing that people are very, very scared of and that it should be answered with something better than that because, well, the battery itself is very small and it's a better form factor than the Magic Leap one because it's rectangular and just for that you can put it in your pocket, which you can do with a circular big puck you have with Magic Leap. So, we'll see what they bring, but yeah, it's a very long time before getting this in our hands. So, they are on safety mode on this. And it gives them time to have more applications developed by developers specific and specialists in that area of expertise. Yeah, something we don't talk about is that the application presentation, they did, apparently they gave some of this prototype to some dev teams and they show virtual art for medical and we know that this kind of use cases don't, it simply doesn't work because we've done this for years. And yeah, you have a Formula One, which is, yeah, not that most interesting, but they announced a partnership with PTC for the industrial side, which were very surprising, I guess, for this kind of presentation. It's very, very specific. But yeah, they were opening the door for industrial and I think this was a very nice move there. But yeah, I was not very, usually Apple, when they are doing technical demonstration, they are breaking the game and it was very, very usual stuff we have already seen in VR and AR and I was kind of disappointed with that, meaning that developers that got this in hand were not able to do something very creative or impressive. So I'm not so sure about this, maybe the SDK was not that advanced at this time and we'll see what developers could do. But yeah, I'm not very- Oh, it's a choice for a marketing choice to open and show the device for the masses use case. And then at other convention, then later in the year, they will release more use case for different convention specific for that area of the expertise. That would make sense if we still have time to do that. Yeah, one thing that I'm also curious about very quickly is so for iOS, when we publish an app on iOS, it's tested and there are like restrictions. You cannot do as much as can be read and I know safety and quality reasons. So I wonder, well, first, how this will be done for the apps that will be published on the Vision Pro. And what kind of limitations Apple will put on developers, not technological limitations, but on the app themselves, like you cannot do this and this and this. So yeah, so very curious to know that because it can have very high consequences for us as we create applications for this. Okay, so we are way past our usual time, but it was a special weekend, special announcement that we've been waiting for, for quite some time. Yeah, I guess we'll be talking about this in the next episode as well. So thank you both for all your very interesting insights on this. And yeah.
