Welcome to episode 38 of Lost in Immersion, your weekly 45-minute stream about innovation. As VR and AR veterans, we will discuss the latest news of the immersive industry. Welcome back, guys. We were not there last week because... well, because... So we are back and please, Fabien, if you have something to say, say it now. Yeah, cool, thanks. So for me today, I will go through a quickfire news about Melaverse Virtual Reality and get your feedback on it. So let's start with updates about the Vision Pro, some news and some patents that were released by Apple over the past few weeks. So we can maybe guess what they are up to for the next versions. So first, the code name of the smaller device seems to be Alaska and set to be released end of 2025. So that's quite a long road ahead. And I guess, as usually with headsets, it tends to delay. So maybe it will be 2026. So maybe a time frame of two years between the Vision Pro and that new device. So another news and I will switch to the patents and we'll start asking your feedback on a few things. So the first one that caught my attention is Apple released a patent for a privacy cloak in VR. So if two people are close to each other, not in reality, but in VR, and they get close to each other, the conversation will switch to a private just between the two of them and not held by the other person in the virtual room. So first, I think it's a nice feature. It's just that I don't really understand why they need a patent for that. But I'm curious to know what you think. Maybe Seb, what do you think? Yeah, it's interesting to put that in place. I don't know if any other games or metaverse does the same. I guess it will be locked by the user because if someone else comes closer to you than the other character you are talking to, you don't want the conversation to switch. So I guess there will be a user action to confirm you want to lock and make that conversation private with that specific user. But yeah, that's interesting. Definitely. Yeah, I've seen that in a co-working cloud service called Gather. It's kind of like a game UI, top view game UI. And when you go close to someone else, the chat gets private. But yeah, indeed, if someone else comes, then they can hear the conversation. So yeah, it depends on how they implement it, I guess. I think we lost Guillaume. I don't see it. Do you see him? No. No. Okay, maybe we can just keep going and see if he comes back. The other one, other patent that I found pretty interesting, and I wonder how they implement that. They are talking about a front-end device that has some kind of weight and tension adjustment, depending on how the head moves. So maybe they have in mind more like moving experiences, like, I don't know, fitness, maybe, or experiences for work, actually. So yeah, I don't know, Seb, you have a lot of experience with these devices, and did you find them moving would be a difficult experience or disconcerting experience, I guess? Mostly what I found the best for the headset is when they are balanced correctly, and you have really a good balance between the headset that is in the front and weighs a lot. But when you do some action, it's not enjoyable, although with their new lenses, back-end lenses, it's less an issue than before. The front-end lenses, you need to be really right in front of them and really fit them correctly. Now there is a bit of adjustment, the sweet spot is a bit larger, so that's a bit less of an issue. But still, having something that fits correctly and doesn't move is really better. I think the only headset that matches that perfectly is the Beyond headset, where you 3D print your mask so it fits correctly your head, which is the kind of direction Apple is going to also with the Vision Pro. So maybe they try to do something that works for every face and fits correctly every face without the need of printing something specific for you. Yeah, you're exactly on point, because 6 or 7 of the other patents are around fitting either on the face or the lenses. They have the foveated display as well, so it seems like they are really focusing on ease of usage and comfort, to have something comfortable to wear for a long time. So we'll see how many of these features make it to the next version, but it's interesting to see. Maybe Guillaume, I was asking Seb, Apple released a patent on a privacy cloak in VR, so if two people get close to each other, they can have a private conversation. I wonder what you think about that, if you think it's a useful feature. Something like the Apple Air, when you can maybe transfer things to the person close to you, but they're with a conversation. I'm not an Apple fan, so I'm not a user of these kind of features, so I don't know if people are really using them or not. But yeah, when you're thinking of a global use of the Apple Vision Pro, they are just thinking about how people will interact when everybody will have these kind of headsets on an everyday basis, I guess. So it's very interesting to see that they are really willing to aim at the global use of this, so very interesting. One thing as well, just to finish on the Apple Vision news is, so the SDK for Unity is now available to everybody, it's out of private beta. And someone did a funny calculation of how much would it cost to develop for Vision Pro with Unity. So you need a Vision Pro, you need a MacBook, and you need the license for Unity, so it kind of adds up quite a lot, and you need, if you want to release the app, to have the Apple developer account as well. So I think the total was around 8k to develop and release apps for Unity, which is quite a lot. But I guess one of the topics today later will be about price as well, so I can bookmark that for next conversation. And switching to meta now. Just about the Apple, did you see the video that is showing how you can calibrate your face? There was a video of this when you just turn around the Apple Vision Pro towards you and it is scanning your face, so it's a very simple procedure. You just have to turn right and left and apparently it can 3D scan your face and put it on a 3D mesh for you to have your virtual representation. So just for you to know that this video is, I don't know if it's a leak or not, but you can see it. Maybe I'll try to find it right now and show it to you while you are talking about meta. Cool, thanks. I'm curious to see, yeah. I'm just missing just one precision. Cool. Okay. A feature that was enabled just last week. Location services. Using the Android location measure. So to me it was a bit interesting to see this kind of feature, especially meta really advertising it. I wonder if you see any immediate application of this feature because from what I experienced and what I see, it's mostly at home experience. So maybe it's related to them trying to go into the business B2B side with this kind of location services. I can guess maybe you can have a different experience if you are using your device at home or at your office. Or if you can play a game with people that are geographically around you. I wonder, maybe Seb, do you have some ideas about this? Yeah, at first I was thinking that it was something to do a shared space experience more easily. But no, it's like you said, it's more GPS location information that you get. So it's not precise in terms of position in space. It's more one meter or 50 meter precision depending on if you are inside or outside. So I guess that's exactly what you said. There's something where you can set up a different kind of experiences or environment where you are at home or at the office working with the headset. And they are talking about having like a walker. If you do some fitness, for example, the fitness apps that launch at your fitness location and something different at your place. The office seems more likely to be the one they should target. So maybe that's an issue on communication around that. Apart from that, I'm really looking forward for them to deploy something that allows a more easy way to do shared space experiences. So at location, if someone else has the headset, you don't have to do any setup quickly. You can join directly the mixed reality experience and experience something together. Yeah, that's more something I'm looking for. Okay, cool. What about you, Guillaume, about this location services? Yeah, the first use is, I guess, the same that we've seen with the other ones. Meaning that you can manage your different spaces and you have ready-to-go 3D scans everywhere you go if it's kept in memory. And the other application I'm thinking right now is about how about a new version of Pokemon Go on the mixed reality headset. It could be nice and it needs a GPS location for you to have this kind of application. So why not? But yeah, right here, I'm just seeing maybe another way of them to get some information about what you're doing with the headsets. We know that some information about your space are shared with Meta. So maybe at some point they are willing to see what people are doing with the headsets as well. It's maybe more a tool for them than it is for us. But we'll see what people and developers would do with this feature. Yeah, good point. Okay, cool. That's it for me. Yeah, I just found the video. So just let me show you that. Okay, so this is the procedure. Okay, so here we are. I know what you're doing and how this is done. I'm going to show you a screenshot of the slides. And this is what I used to do in high school. So I'm going to show you a screenshot of the slides. And this is what I used to do in high school. And this is what I used to do in high school. And this is what I used to do in high school. What do you think? Seems to be very easy, but not sure about the quality after that. Seems too quick for us to have a very detailed information about your face. Yeah, it's a very fast scan. It's a promotional video. So maybe they shortcut it for marketing purposes. But yeah, I mean, that's a very clever way to do a scan. Just use the depth cameras and be done with it. And having a display makes it easy to give instructions to the user. So it seems to be as usual with Apple. UX is very good. And it confirmed that the screen won't simply display the eyes. It would be used for other purposes as well. Yeah, Seb, sorry. No, yeah, you're right. And I think they're only using it to display the eyes of the user. This part on the visor, right? On the screen afterwards when you wear the headset. So they don't need a full scan. They would just need this area to be. No, they are using it as well for the collaboration. I don't know. It's upgraded Teams or Zoom. They want you to have your 3D face so that when you are calling somebody. It's easy to see your full face. Because you're wearing the headset. So you need to have your persona as they are calling it. So you will be using this 3D scan of your face. As a representation for your future virtual call with your friends or colleagues. This is why it's very important to have a very detailed scan. Because if it's too simple. People will say that you are completely in the uncanny valley. And it won't be comfortable for people to discuss with you. So there is a huge work there. For you to have something that people are willing to discuss with. So it's fun to see that they are on the realistic side. And not on the avatar one. But at one point you are not going on the back of your head. Or on the top of your head. So they feel the gap. I don't know how it works really. Maybe it's some kind of face swap algorithm. When you are catching the face and putting it on the 3D mesh. Completely standard 3D mesh. I guess it could work that way. About the hair and your global... I don't know if you have some accessories or what. It won't catch that. It will just catch your face and put it on the... I guess you will have to do some customization of the standard 3D mesh. Where your face will be put on. Not much information about this. This is the way they are taking for us to have our virtual representation. So you mean maybe being able to choose your hairstyle directly? I don't know at this point. One thing about these cameras. The ones that are looking inside. I'm wondering if I want to make a purchase on my phone. It's using the face ID. But I don't guess it will not work with the phone. If you have a headset on. So I don't know if they are thinking of using the inside cameras. To do some kind of face ID or eye ID. I don't know how that would work for payment. So yeah. Just throwing out the question here. I have no idea of the answer. But I would be curious to hear what Apple... How Apple thought of the UI. I may be wrong. But I think they mentioned the fact that it would be your eyes. Because they were very specific about the fact that they won't share those information. About the Apple security and so on. So I guess the answer is right there. Meaning that they will be using your eyes for these kind of actions. I think they talked about unlocking the device. By just putting it and scanning your pupils. Nice. Okay. So... Seb, you're next. So my topic was about a scan that I had the chance to test at the SATIS event in France. Which is this scan. Created by a German company. You step in. There is a lot of Canon EOS cameras that are set up in this space. And you take three seconds to stand in the middle and take a picture. And you end up with a very high quality model. Very detailed, warm. So that's the first scan. High quality. But for... You can easily touch, not scan. Put it in. Very nice. Having a character. The second scan was the best one. Because it's very true. In the middle. Thank you. It's true. But not the best one. It's not the best. It's not the best. It's not the best. It's not the best. So I don't know. Nice, dense moves. Yeah, it's... The... The setup. It's quite interesting to see this kind of setup. While we are also talking about very minimal setups. Like what Move.ai is doing. Which is only for capture the movements. Not for scanning the body. With Nerf or Gaussian splatting. Which has more like on the... Just do it with your phone. Kind of strategy, I would say. And this on the opposite side. With so huge and costly structure. But the results are there. Indeed, it's very impressive. The quality and how... You can apply a rig on it. So... Yeah, pretty impressive. Do you have any information about the price of the scan? Because I met some companies that have... You know, the official rig. With several dozens of cameras in it. For you to do this kind of scan. And they told me that it was about 4k per scan. So they are showing some difficulties to have a business model around it. So do you know what... Here they are selling the device. So it's not a per scan selling price. So if you buy it, you need to do the work to see how you can sell it. They did that as well. But they have some licensing stuff with their device. Meaning that all the scans should be done by the company that sold the system. So I know there are this kind of business models as well. Meaning that you are scanning people. You are sending the data. And they are bringing back the 3D model. If you are paying, of course. Maybe it's just a one time selling product. And so on. But I guess for the manufacturer of the system. It's a very interesting business model. To have your client sending you the data. And being able to build each time. But for the user, it's a real pain. Because it's too expensive for them to grow. So here for me, they are selling the device and the software that goes with it. There is a small adjustment. Mainly on the feet. To separate the floor to the feet. So there is a toolkit for that. But they sell the computer that goes with the whole system. And on that computer, there is the tools to edit the model. So there is a bit of work. Again, there is some training around that. But then there is no additional cost. You pay for that and that's it. And same, they have a rental option also. Where you can rent the system for I don't know how many days actually. But they come, they set it up for you. And that's the overall cost for the rental fee. Okay. Can you communicate the price of the system? They told me 300,000 euros. 300,000 euros for buying the whole system. But then for rental, they are talking about 20,000 euros. Per month? Per year? That's where I'm missing some information. I don't know how long it can last if you pay that price. Okay, nice. That's the first one. The second one, I was able to test this haptic vest. It's very nice. So it's one that is using the woofer basically in a vest. But the way they did it, the vest is very simple. Very nice. You can fit a lot of people because it has a strap on the end. And yeah, the feeling that you get when you touch it is very nice. Okay. Can you communicate the price of the system? The price of the system? That's the first one. You can communicate the price of the system. But the price of the system is a little bit more expensive. And that's where I'm missing some information. The third one, you can communicate the price of the system. The price of the system is a little bit more expensive. And that's where I'm missing some information. And that's where I'm missing some information. Yeah, I tried to tell you. Let's hope we can figure this out. Uh... I... I... Uh... I am. I am. You... You will know when I am. Later. You'll figure out. You can do it. Don't give up. You can do it. You can do it. Protect. Protect. Protect. Protect. Be. 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Yeah well I totally agree with what you said about finally quote unquote finally there is an experience that really looks like what the metaverse purpose was to at the beginning even if we can think of VRChat, Fortnite, Roblox and these kind of spaces as metaverses as well but it's interesting to see like more like a social experience related to a country and not to a commercial entity so I'm really curious to go there to go in the metaverse and see if we can go there and experience it that could be that could be really interesting. Yeah same for me and I wonder if they did they talk about going so far as having the CTO represented and being able to meet do something that usually needs you to go there and do some work. It will be in phase two so it's in the upcoming work and releases of the metaverse you will have this kind of interaction possible. Nice. And for games and stuff like that that's not the place that's only for businesses marketing. Yeah businesses, social events and yeah it's a very I could say that yeah it's everyday life oriented application. I understand the need to meet some people some sales or stuff like that but what is the point of seeing the other user in that use case if you don't if you can't bring them to specific places to play a specific game or exchange or something. Their use case here on the phase one is for I guess it's very student oriented because you have access to the whole library so you can work there and you can meet with your fellow students and professors. So I guess in this first step they are really willing for the student to meet in VR or in the virtual world. And I guess the next step is for a more globally used for citizens. Okay. So yeah they try to embrace the young generation. Yeah. Okay. Any more thoughts about this? Okay we're good. So it's a wrap up for today. We will be seeing you next week for another episode.
